Tory Lies Have Split The Country

I don't think anyone could argue with that. 

Its also clear that those that tipped the vote the leave way were the older voters. Did these voters make informed decisions or believe the lies?

I would suggest they were not informed decisions for a lot of people of certain age.

I saw two old ladies on TV being interviewed, saying they voted out, when asked why they replied "Because we remember how it used to be"
Putting the in or out vote aside, should people be making votes based on how it used to be.  It should be based on how it could be.  So these old ladies have voted for going back to what?  Also these old ladies will most probably be dead and gone by the time we see any benefits (if there are any which is another moot point) from this decision.

With regard to the vote, I have to say would we be calling for another referendum if the vote had gone the other way? Everyone knew what the rules of the vote were. We have had a democratic vote, if they wanted the rules changed to 60% majority they should have petitioned during the campaign. Although notably Farage was saying last month that he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin, hes keeping very quiet now :-)

I do think though to have such an important vote based on a 1 vote could win it shows how arrogant and conceited the Tories are. You need to have a clear majority so that the UK doesn't end up split like it is now.  Cameron is saying I love my country etc etc well sorry but your arrogance has done nothing but split the country.

Personally I think the vote was based on a series of lies.

Lie 1: We would get back £350 million a week that we send to the EU that we can spen on the NHS ~  There never was £350 million so Ill be interested where Boris and co will get the £350 million a week from.

Lie 2: We will take back control of our borders ~ Pretty much every economic trading model with the EU in existence relys on agreement of free movement of people.

Lie 3: Stability ~ David Cameron pledged he would remain as PM regardless of the outcome of the vote.  But true to form he lied yet again and resigned the next day, "Brits don't quit" he said and then Quit.

Lie 4: Article 50 ~ David Cameron pledged he would invoke article 50 straight away in the outcome of a leave majority. But true to form he lied yet again.


Brexit have truly landed themselves and us in the crap. They have no plan, they are running around backtracking on all the promises they used to win the vote and they are stalling on invoking article 50.  Will it ever be invoked?

Its like the start of a boxing match the EU is in the ring warming up, shadow boxing, waiting for the UK to turn up so they can start making body punches and put off other contenders that want to challenge. Meanwhile the UK sits in the dressing room trying to work out how to take the fight to the EU. 

I was so close to voting out that the out vote doesn't actually concern me. What concerns me is we have turned the UK over to a bunch of un-prepared idiots who will get slaughtered in negotiations with the EU. Cameron didn't get what he wanted which is why we ended up with a referendum.

Does anyone really think that Johnson or Gove would be able to garner a better deal?




Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win
David Cameron claims he will not quit if UK vote for Brexit
Why the Article 50 notification is important
3 Brexit promises campaigners had wriggled out of before breakfast on EU referendum results day
EU referendum: David Cameron says 'Brits don't quit' as he makes 'personal' appeal for Britain to stay in the EU outside No 10
Neither side told the truth about immigration in the EU referendum campaign
Our great historical leaders would be stunned at what David Cameron has done
Leave campaign rows back on key immigration and NHS pledges
There are liars and then there’s Boris Johnson and Michael Gove
Prime Minister's fury over Michael Gove's betrayal in 60-second phone call

The UK is split but the vote is out, no time for indecision

Being so close to voting out and on the fence for most of the time in the run up to the referendum I thought id feel differently.

But I dont.

If anything I feel a little out of control, uncertain.

My worry is that they have no plan of what to do.

The Brexit team are now in a state of panic and the country doesn't need that. It will be tough enough anyway as the EU brings their full combined weight down on us to ensure leaving doesn't look a good option to others. Any delays now will just cause further indecision in the markets and further hurt to the UK.

Also the EU wants that decision quickly and will put pressure on to force it. I really don't believe that Boris and the other clowns have a clue, if they did they would have been stating to the country what was going to happen to help stabilize things. 

My main reason for voting to stay was that after researching it for weeks there was no economic model that would work for us and solve the main brexit claim "take control of our borders" and also that the EU couldn't afford to let us leave and be seen to be successful.

I predict this will take 10 to 20 years to sort out. Depending on the acions of the government.

Gove said "there will be bumps in the road" I think that's the understatement of the decade.

Think of it in simplistic terms

 Your the leader of a gang and a very respected member of your gang wants to leave. Now you know that this very respected member has friends that would also leave if they saw Respected member leave and be successful. If they all leave your gang will probably break up.....

QUESTION... as leader of the gang would you help respected member to be successful after he's left or would you do everything you could to make it as difficult as possible for him? 

Once you have the answer to that one we go back to reality... to TTIP, 

Lets go by facts Cameron is on record saying "We want TTIP, we want it now" 

So post referendum, we have left the EU.... The leader of the UK needs to set up trade deals but the EU is being difficult so they turn to the US, we already know Cameron will accept TTIP as it is, THATS BAD. 

Meanwhile in the EU the remaining 27 countries negotiate TTIP with the US because they are in a position of power and any one of them can veto it at any time if its not right for them. Do you think that all 27 countries will accept TTIP, without saying anything .....

The odds are massively against, TTIP will be being negotiated for a long time until the deal is right. 

We shall see....

No one in the Brexit camp posted any plans on what they would do if we left

Did you notice that no one in the Brexit camp posted any plans on what they would do if we left, no one has spent any money on researching the best solution to any of the problems we would face. Its almost as if we'd get a vote to leave and wake up in the morning to sunshine, spitfires flying over the fields and mum making us horlicks.


I reckon its a big con there was never any chance of an out vote..... Oooops did I say that out loud.

We didn't fight two wars to hand the country over now.

People say its was better in the old days, vote to get our country back, but was it?

They say our fathers and grandfather fought for this country dont give it away now!

The problem is, how far do you want to go back, should we go back to the Victorian era when Britain's empire was the envy of the world?

When you either had money or didn't? When there was no NHS and if people couldn't afford to be treated they were left to die?
Back to when when we were tying Indian's to the front of cannons and firing cannon balls through them? 

Its great to think how great things were in the past, but were they really?

I know things are better now than in my childhood and I know they are better than when my great granddad lived in a little tiny 2 bedroom house in Norfolk with 8 kids working as a laborer in the fields. 

Going backwards doesn't make things better.

The people that will be in charge if Brexit happens, Johnson, IDS, Gove, they are throwbacks to the Victorian era they have absolutely no interest in you or me. They will destroy the NHS faster than even Cameron and Osbourne are and then you'll either need insurance or be left to die, like in the US or in so much debt that you lose your house .... full circle bam back to the Victorian era. But it was good then wasn't it? We had an Empire didn't we? Well some did, those rich enough to appreciate it the rest just survived.

With regard to, "we didnt fight two wars to hand the contry over now" well .... I appreciate peoples sentiment, I really do, I've been there. 

Thatcher got another term in government because of war fever, its powerful stuff. 

My Dad went ashore D Day 6, my uncle landed the guys on the beaches and collected dead bodies out of the sea, my uncle charlie died and another is in a grave in Tripoli. Now im not going to say how any of those would have voted but don't forget we didn't win it on our own. 

Without the polish airmen and others in the Battle of Britain we could have so easily lost and be speaking German now, well I wouldn't be here anyway. 

The list of countries who's airman stood with us in the Battle of Britain (Im just talking RAF here many others served in the land forces) reads: Belgium, Czechoslovakia, France, Poland, Ireland, and Australia, Barbados, Canada, Jamaica, Newfoundland, New Zealand, South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, United States. Back then if we had said, nope stiff upper lip, we British will go it alone. 

There is no doubt we would have failed, together we were stronger.

I've researched this for weeks and believe me I wanted to vote out when I started, but where is Johnson, Gove and IDS plan of action if they win?

They have nothing or if they have they havnt told anyone... Why? 

If they had a reasonable plan they could convert me, but no they have nothing apart from tugging on peoples emotional stings and harping on about we did alright before... it was better when we were in charge .... There might be bumps in the road Gove said, Bumps in the road? Note he's said if he doesn't get his way he's off, real staying power he's got. Just as well we had Churchill rather than Gove.  He'd have been off at the 1st setback in the war.

They, Brexit, havnt got a clue and the reason I know that is fact is because no one knows what will happen because its never been done. It might be good it might be bad but the odds are that the EU will make it bad. They cant afford for us to leave and be successful, simple as.

I've not seen anyone post a reasoned, thought out rational opinion on leaving the EU with a strategy on what they will do to renegotiate trade links? 

What they will do when they restructure all the laws? 

What they will do about immigration and migration?

What they will do about all the EU workers that are working here, not taking 'British' peoples jobs, but doing jobs that British people wont do? 

What they will do about all the businesses that will close because British workers wont do it because its hard, farm laboring like my great granddad did? 

What they will do about all the mental health workers that are here doing jobs that they cant fill by advertising in the UK because British people don't want to do it? 

Will they go running straight to the US and accept TTIP, so that trade links are not broken? 

Not easy to negotiate with the US if your on your back foot.

So many unanswered questions. 

The EU is not great, but in it we have a voice to change policy, we have a veto and we are a country with influence.

Out is like jumping out a plane without a parachute and hoping someone will bring one to you, they might, but the odds are they might not make it.

Professor Michael Dougan on the EU Referendum

Professor of European Law at the University of Liverpool, Professor Dougan provides his viewpoint on the EU referendum, and discussed the facts and figures circulated by both the ‘Leave’ and ‘Remain’ campaigns.

The misleading facts and inaccurate quotes from both sides, have been astounding in the run up to this vote.  This is well worth listening to.

Decision made, Remain

Against my initial desire to leave the EU, Ive come down on the remain side.

I have researched pages of texts, fact checking various claims, read pages of different opinions from both sides and watched many video clips on the subject from both sides. If anyone disagrees with me that is your right, but I would ask how much research have you done to look beyond the lies, the misinformation and the misleading quotes.

If your just making an opinion based on any of the below

1. We need our country back.
2. We need to close our borders
3. We need to make our own rules
4. Migrants are taking all our jobs
5. EU bureaucrats are not voted in

Then I would suggest you need to do a bit more research and place your vote from an informed point of view rather than gut reaction.

I have promoted both sides claims on Facebook and played devils advocate to see what others comments would be and where possible tried to engage in intelligent debate rather than scaremongering, which both sides seem to have descended into.


My personal thoughts are these for what they are worth and I'm going to keep this very simple as pages could be written on 100's of differing issues.

I make these points more as an aide memoir for myself, on my quest for the right answer, rather than trying to convince others to vote differently and post them only because people ask me how I'm going to vote.

So here goes...These are the main reasons I will vote to remain

1. Three out of four models the UK could take after leaving the EU to facilitate trade, involve us accepting the EU rules and regulations and free movement of people without any say in making those rules.
2. (This one is a personal opinion), I don't believe the EU will let us leave and succeed. If they do others would follow us and that would be the end of the EU. Their just not going to let that happen, they will force a recession on the UK so that they can point the finger and say "there you go, leave if you want but look what happened to the UK and they were the 5th biggest economy in the world" For those that think the EU couldn't do this cast your mind back to 16 September 1992 when George Soros shorted the pound costing the country 3.4 billion pounds.  The EUs might is far bigger than Sorros.
3. David Cameron is totally for TTIP and judging by comments he's made would accept it tomorrow. Apart from the Tories gradual privatisation TTIP is the biggest threat to the NHS. Its highly unlikely that TTIP will get through the EU without being vetoed.
4. The Conservatives are in power currently till 2020, as far as I can tell they have no plan B for what happens if a vote to leave were to happen. This is important because what they would do in the event of a leave vote could sway a lot of people, including me. If there were rational plans or even ideas of what they will do and the plans looked reasonable then they could have swayed me. But there's nothing, well nothing credible, Gove saying there will be bumps in the road, Boris seems to be clueless.
5. I'm for the NHS, I'm not for a return to Victorian values where those that couldn't afford treatment were left to die. I would also like to see an NHS that is not used as a political football. Boris Johnston, Michael Gove, Iain Duncan Smith, are the main leaders of the Leave campaign and all are for privatisation of the NHS. As these would probably end up in power in the event of an out vote, I have to vote against.

So there you have it I admit I've gone in a full circle but its been based on a lot of research.

LINKS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday
http://eubsdeflector.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/i-dont-know-about-you-but-i-am-quite.html 
http://eubsdeflector.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/part-2-case-for-remain-pros-devil-we.html
http://eubsdeflector.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/mr-gove-on-question-time-my-worries-i.html
http://garysoapbox.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/the-eu-conundrum-have-i-convinced.html 
http://garysoapbox.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/ok-ive-decided-im-voting-out-of-eu.html
http://garysoapbox.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/to-stay-or-not-to-stay-that-is-question.html
Winner of the IEA Brexit essay
Long essay written for the IEA in 2014 and awarded a prize as a finalist
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf

Unelected bureaucrats in the EU ~ Really?

Im still on the fence trying to make an informed decision however this one keeps cropping up and clouding the issue, so ...... are there "unelected bureaucrats in the EU?"

I guess for clarity we need to find out what people mean by bureaucrat

Simple Definition of bureaucrat

A person who is one of the people who run a government or big company and who does everything according to the rules of that government or company : a person who is part of a bureaucracy.

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary



Simple Facts

• MEP's are elected every 5 years.
• Last election in UK was 2014 so next one will be 2019.
• MEP's vote on leader of EU, very similar to how MPs in UK vote on the leader of their particular party.
• There are 28 European commissioners. Each Commissioner is nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President.
• In the UK we have 800 people sitting in the House of Lords all of these are unelected.

"Unlike appointed ministers heading government departments in the UK, the 28 European commissioners are meant to carry out their responsibilities independently of their national governments, acting only in the general interest of the union. In that sense, they are similar to British civil servants - politically impartial and independent of the government."

"The statement of unelected bureaucrats making decisions in the EU is therefore somewhat misleading"

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Commission
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_the_European_Parliament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
http://johnmccormick.eu/2014/05/three-of-the-most-persistent-myths-about-the-european-union/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36429482
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_(government)#Types_of_ministers_and_name

The EU conundrum have I convinced myself to vote IN or OUT?

I already posted a blog putting forward my reasons to vote to leave OK Ive decided im voting out of the EU

I post this because whilst immigration and migration are important issues, they are not the only issue. From what some people are posting its scary to think that their decision is going to be based only on this.

However a few months down the line and having listened to all the scaremongering of both sides, listened to politicians, businessmen big and small, farmers, fishermen etc etc.

I'm still none the wiser and my views of my previous blog havnt changed. So reasons to stay in, lets see if I can convince myself.  Ill put them in order of what I feel is likely to have most effect.

1. The EU is now 28 countries, they cant afford to have one of the bigger members leave and do well. If we did well others would swiftly jump and the EU would be no more. Those at the top of the EU, will not allow this to happen. If we leave they will pile on the pain in an attempt to make an example of us.  We could ride that pain but im guessing it could take 20 years to recover.
2. David Cameron, last year vowed to put “rocket boosters” under the talks as he described TTIP as “a deal we want”.... I actually thought that TTIP was a danger if we stayed in but if we vote out and Cameron stays as leader, he will probably go cap in hand to the US and agree TTIP. Is the EU the only chance of negotiating a better deal or scrapping TTIP in its current form. Or do we stand a better chance out. Its a difficult one but the three mentioned below are all for privatisation of the NHS and Cameron is for TTIP. Rock and a hard place.
3. Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith and Michael Gove (it needs no explanation)
4. The EU is by no means perfect and we might not have much say, but we do have a say in what happens. We also have a veto and we can work at changing things from within.
5. If we leave we can still trade with the EU but will probably have to accept EU rules like Norway does but not have a say in them. Norway also has to accept free movement of people. There are other trading agreements but see note 1 that's the deal stealer.
6. Voting in, is in effect, a vote for the basic principle of the EU, free movement of people. In theory I don't actually think that is a bad thing. I've not been able to find any major detrimental evidence regardless of what people say. However I do think certain conditions need to be in place to stop everyone in Europe wanting to come to the UK. Which is possible with the wages and economy in some of the lesser countries. There needs to be a playing field leveler.

Questions that all should consider

• Why does Obama want the UK in the EU?
• Why did Cameron change tack after using the referendum to win an election?
• Why has Corbyn changed tack?
• Why did Johnson change tack?

Everything happens for a reason, some people are going along certain lines for their own reasons.

Project fear is a fitting name, you should be fucking terrified

Labour should not be the champion of EU free movement

Doubts rise over TTIP as France threatens to block EU-US deal

The TTIP trade deal is lost at sea

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you

Boris Johnson's post-Brexit cabinet: the possible lineup

There’s no justification for curbing EU migration, but low-pay business models have exploited it

Jobs are good ones: addressing the factors that attract EU migrants to the UK

Playing the game without a say in the rules: how Britain would trade outside the EU

Reality Check: The EU referendum

Laws born out of trauma: in defence of the EU’s conception of human rights

Bees, neonicotinoids and the EU

TTIP and the NHS

European referendum – The TIPPing Point